New Opportunities!!!

[Isoitsu]

Hello everyone!

We have a little treat for you all! We hope that it will be used responsibly and that it may help with some activity and renewed interest in some AU’s where you may have been stuck, bored, or pressed to find a way to fit your muse in… we also thought it would make things a bit more exciting.

Now, you will be able to play as the 2P, Nyo, or 2P!Nyo counterpart of your 1P!TN muse(s) in the ALL available AUs (and not just the Miscellaneous section)!!! And no, you don’t have to create another account for them--you just have to make a separate mini-bio for them in whatever AU you want them to participate in.

We do have a few stipulations, however:

➤ Firstly, no, we will not accept anything other than 1P!Canon or OC muses to be reserved and applied for via the character reserve list proper itself.

➤ Secondly, Currently existing AU Mini-bios CANNOT be altered to be the 2P/Nyo alternatives. This is mainly to keep pre-existing plots and interactions from getting muddled up. Yes, a new, complete bio will count toward the AC so long as it is FINISHED before the AC for that period is called.
   ➛However you will be allowed to play 1 additional version of your character (per au) along with your 1P in each verse.
        -- For example, if your 1P/Main for Cardverse is Spain, you would be able to also create a mini-bio for 2P!Spain, Nyo!Spain, OR 2P!Nyo!Spain, but not two of them and definitely not all three. So choose wisely!

➤ Thirdly, for those who have been having difficulties fitting a canon/1P muse into to an AU and would like to play ONLY as one of the counterparts they have, PLEASE CONTACT A MOD FOR DISCUSSION!

➤ We would also encourage you to use some sort of marker in your posts to let others know it is not the “standard” character. It can be anything from a specific post template to just a little icon or a note in the topic, but it could be helpful.


That said, go out, have fun, and take advantage of this new opportunity!

New awards will also be made shortly!

[Deleted]

Hi guys, resident Bambi here for a subject I’m hoping everyone will pitch in on.

So in regards to the new update/announcement, after talking about it with various people, I’m noticing most that I’ve spoken to are not all that interested, or don’t really like it. I see where the idea is coming from -and I in no way want to come across like I’m bashing or criticizing it or anything of the sort- but I’m wondering if there might be a better way to go about things?

One idea that has been brought up a lot during conversations is allowing for apping for nyo/2p/etc characters instead of limiting to the person that has the canon muse, and I think that might could work better, as well as open up opportunities for those that actually have interest in said characters (or maybe even give us the chance to attract new forum members).

Like I’ve said, I haven’t spoken with everyone, and I’m sure there are peeps out there that disagree with me or have ideas/suggestions of their own, and I’d be curious to hear those thoughts. So if as many members as possible could comment on this, that would be great!!

[Deleted]

Heeeeey Puchi here uwu/

Regarding the new announcement/update about the 2ps/nyos/etc being able to be played on TN by the mun who already owns the original muse, in my opinion, is a missed oppurtunity. I am happy that the site is moving to accept more variety of characters from this beloved fandom we are in, but I feel there is a better way to go about this. I feel by opening the gates to such characters we have a possibility to grow more by getting new members and for muns already here to have an oppurtunity to play a character they don't already play.

I'm going to be completely honest; I don't like 2p!Romano (seriously I cringe at the aboniation creation known as Flavio) and nyo!Romano. I of course don't have a muse for them, and I personally don't want a part of their characters either as myself. However, there may be somebody out there who might have those muses as their main, and for them I feel it's a wasted chance because I'm not going to play them anyway, why can't somebody who wants to have a chance? And if you want to play them yourself, I don't feel it's too much to ask for them to openly app for them as one would with any other muse.

I feel it's best if we are going to accept Nyos (and 2ps) into our community, we open them for everybody instead of a certain few who may or may not have that muse. It could add more characters to the board, possible new members, new plots, and all without the constriction of being limited to a selected few just because you play the main muse or because somebody who isn't going to play your choice of nyo or 2p happen to own the main muse themselves.

[Deleted]

I'm fine with the new system, but my main hang-up (which is entirely about me, a personal issue, and not a reflection on the system itself) is that as someone who is dealing with RL work, dead-ish muses, and a backlog of posts, the creation of more characters and plots is probably not ideal. If this continues to be a problem within a few months I will take responsibility and consider dropping some muses or plots, but for now I just want to add to this topic. m(__ __)m

So, this is what I've heard so far about people wanting nyo/2ps to be appable in general I typed this before I saw a poll was out so pls excuse if this is redundant:

-some people just don't have corresponding nyo/2p muses to their canons (and thus can't use this opportunity)
-some people have nyo/2p muses, but no corresponding canon
-it might be tiring to play the same character (even if different versions) within the same AU. As far as nyos go, they have similarities to their canon counterpart, and playing two of them might feel repetitive (also handling two Romanians will make me uh..how you say..die??? Don't make me do it, please)
-opening non-canons as appable might bring in new characters, new interpretations, and basically inject some fresh blood into the forum. Even if it's preexisting members taking new nyo/2p characters, we know everyone has different interpretations, so it'll bring more variety anyway

I don't think this means we have to scrap the new proposal altogether, but if there was a way to work this into a combined system, that might be ideal. I can imagine that some people with existing canons do want to play their nyo/2p counterpart, after all (and if not then I guess ignore this lol). I was thinking a permission-based system might work, which has already been done in some other forums, namely that people with canon characters can opt to allow or prohibit people from taking counterparts to their canon. Perhaps someone who prohibits this gets to keep the opportunity to insert nyos/2ps into AUs (basically, continue as proposed by the new system), but someone who allows other people to take counterparts will simply refrain from inserting a nyo/2p into AUs (and I presume the nyo/2p will be able to participate in the canon universe too). There are definitely some questions/kinks to be worked out with this system (what happens if a canon drops? Could a nyo/2p take over for them? Would that require a separate app?), but I'd be happy to throw out more suggestions depending on how far this idea gets.

[Boss]

Thanks for you feedback, Bambi, Puchi, & Worldie. In light of what has been put forward so far, we've put together a poll. It's open for a month I believe, so plenty of time for everyone to make their feelings on this particular matter a bit clearer for us. It can be found here. 

Anyone with additional feedback on the 2P/Nyo/2P!Nyo proposal that was made earlier today is encouraged to still post here (or alternatively, can bring concerns to me). The poll was merely a step we thought we should put in place after hearing opinions so far. We welcome suggestions, & want to know what's wanted by our members.

[Boss]

@hk
From what I understood in coming up with the current proposal, it was an attempt to give people an opportunity to try their hand with current charas as those alternate versions, while keeping to the AU/mini-bio theme of TN. Members could choose to do this or not, which does make it a system not everyone would benefit from. Allowing members to app the alternates they have muses for instead of only the alternates for their current charas does grant more freedom, I agree. 

As for the suggestion of having a combination of both approaches exist on here, I'm not sure how smoothly that would run. It might end up complicating things if some people have mini-bios for alternates and some have separate accounts entirely. I'd agree with giving those with muses for their alternates control in that they could get first come first serve on them though, if we started accepting reserves/applications for alternates. 

[Deleted]

Boss

Oh, yes, definitely. I guess I was just providing some reasons as to why it's not a good fit for me personally (which isn't to say anything about how other people will utilize it!), but from the feedback on this thread so far, it does seem like there will at least be a few people who won't benefit for for one reason or another.

The mini-bio based system does have its plusses though, which is why I think there are good arguments to be made for keeping it too. It's definitely nice to have the opportunity of nyos/2ps open to you without having to go through the entire app process, and I do think playing different versions of one's muse across AUs is an attractive thought. I would definitely have taken advantage of this if it were in place when I first joined, but by now I have established mini-bios and plots with my canons and I don't really want to balance two versions of my charries within the same AU. However, just because it's not for me personally doesn't mean other people can't handle multiple versions of muses, or that others can't benefit in the future.

If we did handle it in a combined system, it would be more skewed towards people who app as canons (being able to access potentially all 4 alternates in one app), but I don't think this is necessarily unfair. After all, the canons are the main characters, have more material on them in general, and it's an incentive for people to app as canon countries than just the nyo or 2p. I mean, if you guys want to scrap the mini-bio system in favor of opening alternates for people to app, that's absolutely cool too, but I do see its benefits and I think it's worth keeping (even if it complicates things a bit more).

EDIT: If it comes to this too, it could also be that everyone creates separate accounts for alternates, regardless of whether the alternates are their "main" or not.

[Boss]

@hk  
It would probably appeal to some to create mini-bios in whatever verses they want instead of creating an application for an alternate, yeah. Personally I wouldn't be able to juggle an alternate on top of my two characters even if I had those kinds of muses though, so I would worry about those with multiple characters who might wish to do alternates on top of those in mini-bio form, as proposed. It seems like more juggling than treating alternates as separate accounts would cause (although doing it this way would mean people with 3 characters would need to drop a chara to play an alternate). 

[Isoitsu]

Ok...

I will say this to what was previously mentioned: if, as the player of several muses, I said that I did not want another person to play the counterparts of my mine (because I can and will play them) that’s at least 5 slots that are automatically filled. I would actually play them, but some people, not saying ya’ll would, but there are some that would be like “no i don’t want x counterpart of my character on site thanks”.

Also the suggested alternative of canon player + allowing nyos/2ps to app (alongside them or in their stead if dropped)….That’s a hard and fast no from me due to the complications that I can foresee arising. Especially, since, as I will discuss below, Nyo is just (a slightly more complex) Genderbend at heart.

As with any AU and plotting situation, it is SOLEY up to you if you wish to participate. If you don't wanna play x or with x or in x AU...then don't. No one is forcing anyone to do so.

---

While I love Nyos and 2Ps (as I play several myself)... they are not entirely separate entities unto themselves as different nations would be (N. Italy vs. S. Italy for example)

Nyos were a result of HetaliaGod putting Estonia in a dream where the other nations were women. They appear nowhere else in the comics save for, perhaps, to explain a few differences (via breaking the fourth wall, but they don't interact with others in strips). The Nyo’s are, for all intents and purposes, genderbent versions and do not exist alongside their counterparts, but in an alternate reality.

Design-wise, yes, he tried to do their designs as if they were female to begin with/different people, but he also mostly did it for funsies.

“...designs of the opposite gender exist for certain characters, as Hidekaz Himaruya drew them for fun to see what the nations would be like.”

Similarly, the 2P characters are NOT separate entities, but originally just alternative colorizations/etc of the originals. They do not have canon personalities--such was given to them by the Fandom.

“Each design is an alternate coloring of an existing character or their Nyotalia version. The designs are commonly referred to as 2P designs, a reference to the alternate colorings of characters in some multiplayer video games when more than one player selects the same character. Though none of them have been given personalities, Himaruya said he'd drawn them as though they ran an evil organization”

In short, it's a matter of do alternate designs actually mean a new character? To me that answer is no, it does not.

This is why we offered what we did. Because, when taking into consideration the intent of the creator, neither the Nyotalia nor the 2P!Hetalia characters are actually, for example “the other Spain that we know of”. They are Alternate Versions of the canon--be it a bit darker, or genderbent--but they are still just alternate versions which can be utilized in Alternate Universes.

In reality, anyone could have genderbent their character already on site, called them a nyo and played them in an AU. In fact, we have an AU in which a character is actually genderbent (as far as not being their canon gender) and has a mini-bio up. Same thing with the 2P, really--all you had to do was play them in a darker light or what have you, with a background that made them as they were.. So really, if you look at it that way, this announcement was more or less of an official: “Hey guys you can do the things there if you want with the canon character you play already. Just a reminder.”

[Boss]

For those maybe unsure how they will vote or not following the current discussion because its lengthy, I made a TL;DR. I tried to condense the feedback presented here so far fairly, but I would still encourage people to read what others put here to get their opinions verbatim. 

[Deleted]

Ok there's a few things I want to add after reading some of the responses. ^^;


First and farmost, I want to state that Nyos and canons are not the same character even in the canon verse as Himaruya stated. The biggest example I can pull up is that it is stated that Fem!N.Italy has a 'stronger personality' than her male counterpart, meaning she is more courageous and on the go than Feliciano is. That is not the same as just making Feliciano a girl. Sure they may not be 'canon' since the nyos only appeared in a dream of Estonia's, but if we are going to include them here on the board and treat them as something other than slapping male or female organs on the opposite gender, then yes, I think they are completely different characters, and deserve to be thought of as such.

If another part of the issue is 'that is too many characters for those who already have three', then I feel by all means, make a fourth slot and/or drop a character or two you are less active on if you want to play an alternate version. There is no rule being put in place as far as I see that, for example, I will not be able to app for both 2p and Nyo Romano if we are going with the apping as new character process. If you can handle them, great! But if not, that's just a muse that somebody else could make use of in taking part in playing a character they might've already wanted and had it taken/trying out a muse they already have and/or want to make.


Another part I saw being brought up is 'I don't want another version of my character running around' and 'it will complicate the canon verse'. These two make no sense to me personally, because 1. We are all adults; if we don't like something that another person and/or majority enjoys, we can adapt. Or be like me if I see someone apping for "Flavio" if this goes through, ignore it. Nobody said you have to plot with the said muses that may come forward. And if complicating the canon verse is another one of the worries, one can always put a rule that nyos/2ps are not allowed in that verse, or do like what we did on DiE, make them counterparts and humans instead. I feel there's no need to overthink it all as it's being suggested as so.


Personally, 2Ps are an entirely different story to me, so I won't touch on that too much. But I feel Nyos can be considered new characters that could be apped by others and possible new members. Not to mention, I'm one of those that were stated above; a member who has no alternate version of my main muse, and also a member who has an alternate muse but not it's canon counterpart.


A suggestion I think that may work is, if said person wants to app for the alternate version of the muse they already own, maybe they can skip or shorten some parts in their application process? Like, less needed in some areas or something maybe? That way the people who have the main muse can still have the advantage if they want to claim said muse, but the muse won't just be sitting there without anyone to play it just because the person who owns the main muse doesn't have them for themselves?


Again, all my own suggestions and opinions, but I just wanted to add that in. ^^

[Isoitsu]

Regarding Nyos, let me just add this in, since Puchi brought up the personality differences.

Yes, Nyos have SLIGHTLY different personalities--but even the wiki doesn't have much about that! Only a snippet or two--most of their personalities are further developed by the FANDSOM. But this doesn't mean they are an entire standalone new characters. They are still x nation, just a genderbend. genderbend does NOT mean a carbon copy all the time either though some people in the fandom do play it as such..

The change in personality is in part due to them being the other gender and the stereotypes associated with it as well as culture they came from.

NyoNorth Italy, for example.

Stronger personality, yes. Most Italian women I know (I work with one, am friends with some, have family, and customers) do have a stronger personality and take no bullshit. They will let you know quite quickly if something upsets them. The men on the other hand, are stereotyped as womanizers--something both Italian brothers are said to be canonly. I've not exactly heard much of the “Italian toughness” in regards to men, just that they are machismo aholes and womanizers--and of course as per the outlook of the world regarding the past great wars, the Italians switch sides when things aren't going good. *throws up white flag*

Also it would make literally no sense to have a carbon copy of a very macho man muse be mimicked as a female. That is bound to change.

Germany and NyoGermany, for example.

Ludwig is more apt to physical violence and is a bit emotionally stunted. His female counterpart gives off a more “cool” feeling and since women mature faster than men emotionally etc, I would wager she's a bit more calm as well as a bit more emotionally developed.

Both will scold Italians for getting themselves into troublesome situations . Both appear quite reserved and serious (she's a bit more worried or exasperated looking though). Both are “caring” as Ludwig acts fatherly in some instances and NyoGermany acts like a motherly/big sister type gal (as some portrayals have her including my own).

I could go on and on with examples.

I MAY be more lenient in allowing Nyos as “female version of x” like on DiE, but I'm still a firm believer that they are not entirely 100% standalone characters that would interact with canon (outside of fourth wall breaking to explain a few differences )but are Alternate/genderbend versions of the original.

[Isoitsu]

I do like the last part you brought up, Puchi. That's a good suggestion.

[Mihai Roșu]

Thank you for the summary, Boss!

I don't have much to weigh in on wrt nyos/2ps, and I think people will have different interpretations/opinions on them (as far as how far from canon they are) and we could... probably discuss that until the sun explodes. That said, I want to clarify a bit on my own part..? As far as I know, but correct me if I'm wrong, I'm the only person who's engaged in some gender/sex fuckery in AUs, and in regards to that, I just want to make clear that it wasn't my intention to play a nyo. For some reason, I was under the impression that it wasn't allowed, so Romania has been very much canon (well, as canon as you can be with AUs) in all my iterations, despite being AFAB in a couple of 'verses. I'm sorry for any confusion that may have caused, and I hope–should the poll go in that direction–it won't dissuade or take up space from anyone wanting to app nyo!Romania.

Other than this, I think Puchi's idea sounds cool too. Like, alternates will count towards your total character limit, but muns already with a canon can have a shortened app format for their alternates (should they want)?

ALSO ALSO. This is like... a technical problem, but Luna and I are having issues with the sidebar ffff. I can't see mine and I can't toggle it, and apparently hers is out all the time and she can't toggle it to close it?

[Deleted]

So here to chide is the local salt mom, Ryn, here in all their salt and splendor, hi hello, *Sombra voice* been here all along.

In a serious move along, I want to add my two cents to the thread because BOY HOWDY YA'LL I GOT SOME THOUGHTS. In my life time of this fandom I have seen some shit, I have done some shit, and all of it has even begun with those lovely 2ps, so let's start their. In technicality, yes, they are a recoloring, but in all honesty if you wanted to add that in a correct way you may as well give canon characters new outfits, not a new personality. I think they are indeed separate from their 1p counterparts, and should be apped for as such, especially because they can be so drastically different (I could show you my Ivan and Vladimir one day, lemme pull out those receipts...it's been 84 years anyway might as well drag them back out) but even in that case, not everybody plays 1p and 2p alike, which has been brought up. I personally, have a handful of 2p's, but I dropped them all because of bad memories tied to them and ill experience. Plus, it's just too much work and I have no interest because it's 2p's.

Before I get tooooooo personal though, I know, yawn fest, let's get to Nyos because that's where the fun starts. Estonia's dream, yes, and God, and that shit. Very nice. But They are separate people, though they can have similar traits as their counterpart due to being the same country, that's what I think. There's no reason for them to be the same, and Nyo IS NOT the same as genderbending. In fact, genderbending can come across as offensive in some circles and also, quite frankly, means they would look different. I just don't believe say, "genderbent" Alfred and Amelia, are going to look the same, ya know? Nyo characters are a separate being from their regular counterpart and need to be respected as such. Persay my Anya is not Ivan, is she? No, of course not, actually she's a lot worse because she could get away with it, and was just never mentally recovered quite like he managed. My take on the Norwegians are different however, they are much more similar in a lot of ways, but my lady was molded differently a little by like her dad in terms of religion and a few beliefs, but history was the thing that kept them together. 

Anywho, I also make the same argument as above of no corresponding Nyos for some people, but may others have them. I sure as hell don't have a Belgian boy, but maybe somebody else would and want him. Why let a nonexistent muse collect dust? Give him some use, let him stretch his legs. Ya know.

My last point is genderbending in general because this has me really hot under the collar. Genderbending in AUs isn't a thing if the character is trans on any part of the spectrum. And I just feel like it's rude if that's the one to reff, because it's actually super offensive in that community to a lot of people with genderbending as a thing. I know a lot of people who aren't okay with it so just calling it such is even worse really. So that's not much a point to stand on. I will go to the grave on gender issues though, I just think that it's no an example. Also, I hate genderbending in Hetalia, honestly, I just...I don't like it. Personal pref tho.

That's my clusterfuckery of a post though, my two cents dropped. So.....do with the pennies what you will.