New Opportunities!!!

[Isoitsu]

Since I spoke with you a while back about your biography regarding the genderbend know that you were not intending it to be a Nyo however not everybody might realize that. Especially since with regards to Romania and some lesser supporting characters there does not exist any information regarding their counterparts and is purely up to fandom to interpret. So really I guess my big concern, if we allow old the Canon players to genderbend as well as other people to apply for nyo,would be how does one really differentiate between the genderbend or nyo when no real info exists for x version of x character?

As discussed, Everyone will interpret a certain character differently especially when there is no Canon personality associated with them, or if there is only a little bit of information for them. So what would be a way that we could tell the difference between oh the person that normally plays Seborga is just doing Seborga as a girl instead of as "pure nyo". You really can't…you can only go by what the person playing them says they are doing.

Also I would be very disappointed if you had to change your biography in the Pirates alternate universe. Personally I think your character has an interesting guy thing going on and of course from a selfish standpoint we have plots kind of that I would hate to lose.

And I would love to play Lud or Marco as a female/nyo version of themselves, but with how the Aus are it's just been more practical to play them as their usual genders. Especially because the plots in play allowed it to be easier for them to fit in that way at the time.

As I mentioned before, anyone could've been playing as a genderbend/different gender of their Canon character they could've been playing a darker version of them as well that may have seen more like the 2P version--despite saying if was one or not (again interpretation vs intent I suppose). The announcement was more or less an official “go ahead and play the nyo and 2p in AUs if you want, but actually applying as them like you would a normal canon or ic is still a no go.”

SIDEBAR:
Since it's going on both this site and the other one we're the same coding is being used chances are it something wrong with the plug-in itself and not something that I will be able to fix until later. The creator may be altering the code or it may have got jumbled up somehow. The best thing I can say is to ride it out for now and hope it fixes itself otherwise I will look into applying a new plugin later.

Cbox link is:

Www.tn-ooc.chatango.com
Www.tn-ic.chatango.com

[Isoitsu]

This is a disclaimer. I play as all versions of Germany as well as Seborga . You are literally preaching to the choir with regards to some of your points ( Like personality and creation thereOf and the differences). However I am trying to use Canon evidence and logic instead of. Playing off of my own feelings and portrayal of muses. I am guilty of playing them whenever I get a chance because yes the fandom somewhat Accepts it now. But that is not their true/intended purpose--it's something a lot of us have just taken and run with because we can.



"nyotalia refers to the genderbent versions of the canon Hetalia characters. Nyotalia is a fandom-made term, started by the Japanese fandom, from the words nyotaika (which refers to male-to-female genderbends) and Italia (or, rather, Hetalia)."

So you can literally blame the fandom for that if you want.

Im genderfluid/on the spectrum and im not bothered at all by it but it's a lot more acceptable and understood among the anime/manga communities to say "genderbend" than "sexbend/etc".

We could go into a whole argument regarding sex and gender with regards to nations etc and the like as we had to on DIe, but because it is NOT NECESSARY to this particular discussion, this will be the first and only warning to not bring it up and stick to the topic at hand. For this I'll say ONE THING. For our intents and purposes of this conversation we are not referring to IDENTITY but to the BIOLOGICAL SEX of the characters. Male organs to female or vice versa is going to be referred to as Genderbend in this context. If you want to argue of trans and hermaphroditism in muses I will gladly discuss elsewhere but this is NOT the place for it.

Again. 2ps garner their personalities from fandom. Period. Otherwise they are recolors at their core. As far as that goes...You wouldn't play smash brothers, select purple Mario because the original was taken and claim "oh. No . Totally different character and everything" and really that's what hima was doing. Just a different color palette at its core, not new characters again the FANDOM deemed them different characters and given them new personalities and whatever. They are what they are because of the Fandom run I g with it, not because Hima was like "you know what we need? Evil versions with new personalities".

A majority of nyo and all of the 2p, in reality, are complete or borderline OC's made entirely by the fandom.

[Deleted]

Hiiii guys

So I’m going to avoid getting into gender issues, because I want to avoid an argument here. People know my thoughts and stance on it, and if anyone doesn’t they’re free to just message me away from this.

That being said, I’m going to delve into my other thoughts.

Canonly, yes, nyo characters are not ‘canon’ in the sense that they do not exist alongside the canon cast outside of Estonia’s dreaming, but Hima does keep drawing them and making new designs. They kinda exist on the level of nekotalia in my mind. Nekotalia is so weird to me sometimes. But anywho, if it’s all a matter of “nyos are not canon,” then if they are apped for they can always be barred from posting in the canonverse section. They weren’t going to be able to post there anyways, so I think that could bring us closer to a good compromise on this.

This being said, nyotalia still has more to it than 2P’s do, or probably ever will. As a resident fact collector of this fandom (being in this hell since 2009 or so has given me plenty of time to know how and why things have happened), I can tell you that yes, they were basically created as recolors of the originals, as if you were playing a game and two people picked the same character so one of them got the alternate colors. The reason they’re given the fanon personalities they have is because Hima said he drew them as if they were part of a crime organization, and the fandom did as the fandom does with it. In my eyes, 2P’s are very much OCs. They have 16 official designs, but that’s all they have. While not every nyo design has a defined personality, a good number of them do, so for the most part they’ve always felt more genuine to me. Though… the entire prerequisite for set personalities might could be considered irrelevant, since even some canon characters barely have that going for them, or do not at all (sorry, Ecuador, you beautiful design you).

I feel like I’m forgetting some thoughts here since I just got off work and I’m too tired to function, but here’s what I can remember at the moment. But, yeah ^^;; Maybe only allowing nyos/etc to post in the AUs would be a step closer to compromising here?

[Boss]

Mihai Roșu

Mini-bios grant members freedom to frame their characters in AUs as they please more or less. As long as there's no blatant disregard for the rules of the forum tied into a mini-bio (ex: material that might lead to concerning stuff like god-modding etc.) and conflicting details between characters bios (especially if more relevant to major plots in the AU) are sorted out when identified, admins won't likely ask for members to change their interpretations/bios. Seeing as your Romania!muse in the verse in question is established and not seeming to be hurting anybody too, no need to worry about it.

Concerning the recent argument about whether 2Ps & Nyos are just twists on canon characters or should be treated as separate, I feel the need to say that either way, how these would be presented/interpreted here would still be largely up to each mun. Personally my Nyo!Spain is a lot like my 1P!Spain, just female, for example; however, I know others will have Nyo!muses with larger personality differences. The question I think we're starting to get away from that needs addressing is how best to incorporate 2Ps & Nyos, if incorporating them is something we want to start doing. Do we let people apply for either (or both), or do we only incorporate them in mini-bio form for current characters?

I for one am having a hard time sorting out what should be done. I initially liked the mini-bio way, but since Nyos can be and 2Ps are different from 1P, mini-bios might not be enough space to outline those differences on top of details on the character in an AU setting.

@thatbambikid

I also find myself liking your thought about keeping 2Ps and possibly Nyos as well out of canon RPs, regardless of which way we end up implementing them.

[Deleted]

Boss, you're right, we are digressing from the main question here. I still believe we can compromise and combine ideas. I do like Puchi's suggestion of allowing members to have shorter apps or easier ways to get an alternate/counterpart muse if they already have a canon, that way others still could have a chance if they wanted to get a nyo/etc of a muse they do not have, that way they're not just going unused.

I mean, even introducing a sort of permission-based system (ie asking the mun of the canon character if you can have their nyo) could help here. You could even make a prerequisite of the canon character needing to be on site before the nyo can be apped for, if there's a concern for people prioritizing the nyos over canon.

And like I've said, nyo's can even be barred from posting in the canonverse section, if people are against nyo characters interacting in canon situations.

These are just my thoughts, and if anyone has better suggestions or reasons these just wouldn't work, I'd love to hear so ^^

[Isoitsu]

Forgive me if unecessary, but I feel like I need to explain ^^;

As far as things here go, actual irl nations that have character designs like Ecuador or many of the African nations that at least appear in canon would still be considered "canon" despite not appearing as much or having alot less info (kinda the same as how we treat ancient Egypt or the TRNC I guess you could say). Granted, they would be given more of an OC personality treatment, but at least there are real life sources we could compare them to as far as cultural accuracy etc. IRL nations like Indonesia, who has no design in and isn't mentioned in canon, would be a straight up OC nation, who again, would be a "victim" of fact-checking.

Ok now that that's outta the way, if we do get one or both or whatever, here is my input:

I am both a fan and a hater of the permission-based thing. Especially since it can be abused easily by (potentially disgruntled) members - sue me I'm always going to go with the worse-possible outcome.

I'm for it because hey, I'd be able to play the Alts of My characters! I'm against it because like I mentioned before, that could be a whole lot of "no way Jose)

I mean, instead of asking "can x play nyo/2p of x" maybe it should be "are YOU going to play their alternatives and which ones?" That way it is not unused, and whichever ones are not being utilized by the canon rper in AUs can be applied for by another person? But they have to have some sort of bio/app up for it or they cannot claim playing them. So maybe tack on some mini-bio or whatever onto the initial application that is also reviewed and approved.

I also can kinda get behind the idea of the canon MUST be taken before a Nyo is allowed and it can follow the rules mentioned above.

Restricting them to AUs was part of the original announcement anyway tbh so that I am fine with..

[Isoitsu]

Also as per the original announcement, if we go with the permission based, I think it would be fine to let one alternative into the Au if the canon already exists there--especially if it was before the implementation of nyo/etc...and the canon can't be changed cuz continuity issues and plot complications

[Boss]

I like the idea of tacking mini-apps for 2Ps/Nyos onto approved apps if current members want to use their character's alternate. I also think a permission system could work, if we ask around and make a list of who plans on using their character's alternates and open the alternates that aren't claimed to other members. That seems to suggest a mixed system though--new apps for those using other character's alternates and shorter tacked on apps/no new account for those using current character's alternates--unless the latter is expected to make new accounts too. I'm not sure what people would rather.

[Isoitsu]

Personally I think that only those who are apping fresh need A new account. Those who use the tack-on method are essentially going to be utilizing them as alternative character versione for AUs. The latter can have a special icon or template when posting to differentiate, if needed, but otherwise, it's like a mini-bio treatment.

Also as far as tack-ons to apps, there would need to be extensions or a "go back period" after the Initial one is accepted. Because let's be real, if I or someone else went to apply For a muse and x number of counterparts, there would need to be an extra amount of time to complete it instead of the standard 1week+extension


Also y'all forgive me for weird spellings and sentences I've been using the phone all day and you know how it hates my gig fingers

[Kiku Honda]

Not too much for me to say here that hasn't already been said, but personally I think that people playing Nyos even if they share a lot of personality traits with the canon characters can still play those characters in vastly different ways. I play Gil on another board and he is very different than My's Gil. I played Feli before and I can tell you, Reed plays a much different (and better) incarnation here. If we can have that much variation with the same character, I feel like there is plenty of room for interpretation with 2ps or Nyos. So to be honest, I'm not against the use of Nyos or 2p outside of the canon boards. I already know that I'm not going to use an alternate of my muse because I'm not familiar enough with either concept to do it justice and it seems a bit unfair that anyone who'd want to play Sakura or whatever 2p!Japans name is, can't because I currently have hold of their cannon character. I'd hate to deny someone a chance to expand their involvement here because of it.

Anyway, I like the idea of there just being a list where members say whether or not they plan to use their alternates. If they don't then I'd think it'd be fair for someone else to claim it. (With the understanding h that if someone drops their cannon you may have to negotiate with the new person who takes on the character.) In my experience most people are reasonable, I'm sure we could work it out.

[Deleted]

Ok I hate to be that person, but I want to speak up about my thoughts of 'mini' or 'tacking' alternate versions of your main into the application or posts or whatever.


I personally do not like this idea.


For one, it would mean Nyos and 2Ps will count as characters for some people and for others it will not, and that is very unfair in my opinion. Just because, say, I have S.Italy, shouldn't mean I can have all the alternatives immediately under my belt just because I say so and they don't count towards the character count, while somebody else who might want to play for said alternative have to count it to it. To make it fair across the board, I really suggest making them all separate accounts and separate muses that count towards the character limit count. That way, nobody will be put in the unfair spotlight of having so many muses and only having to count them as one, while somebody else can only have one alternative as a muse and have to count them as such. It just really seems unfair to me, especially for new potential new members or people who want a character alternative other than their main.


Speaking of potential new members, this can also be very confusing for them as well. I don't mind there being a rule that a person cannot apply for an alternative of a character who's main muse isn't claimed yet, but it could be confusing for some alternative muses to have their own profile and some to only be sticky-noted aside on the side of a main muse. I know I definitely would be if I come in and see that mix, for sure. I don't understand the issue of making them new profiles and new characters all together (with limits, like maybe not being able to post in the canon verse or whatever if so chosen), and it just will seem cleaner and make sense in my opinion to make them as such instead of jumbling some up on one profile and separating others.


I agree there could be a permission board thing, though. And that people with the main muse can get an advantage when making profiles for the alternatives of muses they already own. Maybe smaller requirements, deletion of certain parts of the app, whatever that can be worked out to make the original muns easier to apply for said alts. But I also believe if you are going to 'claim' and say you want to keep the alts to yourself, to please, please play them. Don't just take them and let them collect dust; that's a muse that could potentially bring in a new breath onto the board. That's like me saying "I like Iceland, so Iceland is mine. I'm not going to play him, but nobody else can either." It's just not fair.


I'm not here to attack anybody, though, please keep clear on that. I'm just saying, if we are going to implement nyos and 2ps and whatever, then to please make it fair across the board and for potential new people who may join in the future.


Sorry for the long post ^^;

[Isoitsu]

In this light, then I don't think permission based is going to cut it. If you want it as fair as possible then it's going to have to be fair all around meaning they have to fill out completely new apps.

Also I see a lot of talk about "potential" new people and "new blood"...

I hate to be that person, but statistically, comparing several other sites as well as past ones, Nyos and 2P barely make up a decent percentage of characters on a board. Combined, they make maybe 1/10 of the total characters. (For every 10 canon characters, you have only 1 nyo OR 2p). Nyo!2P! Are predominantly nonexistent. Of these people taking the characters, they are all "old blood". They were taken by players who 1. Where creators/mods of the site proper itself, or 2. Already established on the site before hand. Less than 1% (read as 1 person total) joined strictly as "new" and initially as a 2p/Nyo. Also, going along with comparisons, Nyos are more popular than 2P, as far as applicants, and the ratio is typically 1/3 regarding that. This is a trend I have witnessed in both existing and now-defunct sites.

That said, statistically, and in all reality, it is highly unlikely that this change is going to bring much, if any, "new blood" and the only ones that would be utilizing it are those already established.


Moving on, I do believe we are getting ahead of ourselves with the whole "planning for x and x" and the voting is not yet complete. We should deal with incorporating others or whatever when we get the final results but for now, we are just sitting here spinning our wheels in the mud and counting chickens before they hatch.